Why do I keep putting myself through this?

Being late isn't professional. Yes, things happen from time to time that are unavoidable, but when it's a lame excuse, on a constant basis, then that's a problem.

On a larger scale, even if the goal of the band is not to be a professional, money making act that's ran like a business, and it's just a hobby band, certain things must still happen and therefore the following still applies:

Orgranization.

Each band member must be respectful of each member and of the band as a whole.

Each band member must be orgranized and while they may each have individual goals and reasons for being in the band, there must be a common goal(s) shared by each member in the group as a whole. If you have 5 people with their own agendas in a band, none of which coincide or have anything in common with the others, then it's doomed. Instead you have 5 people trying to use the band soley as a vehicle for their own personal benefit without consideration for others.  If that's the case, just be a solo artist and hire out your band. It's easier that way.

In all fairness, Octo's been nothing but cool.  I don't really blame him for anything.  All in all, he's the best friend I've got in the music scene.  I'm sorry to drag him through this again and again.

 As I said at the beginning, it's just my depressed rantings.  It's the depression talking, and I know I shouldn't listen, but sometimes it's the loudest voice up there.

Ok, I guess I'm confused.  Rocket, if you're a songwriter (and Octo makes it sound as though people like your stuff), why not start your own band? 

Depressed?  

Fuck, who the hell isn't?

I haven't played in a band in 4 years and my drums
have 2 inches of dust on them. Should I blame the mailman?

I blame life.

I may have just been playing with the wrong people but I don't miss the BS in the least. 

The only time I get a tickle is when I'm out watching a show and someone start hitting me up to join their band.

You know who you are!!!

Other than that I don't miss it very much. It was hard at first when my wife would drag me out to seee some bands at the Rock that ended up sucking and felt a need to make a come back in order to prove I was "better".

The worst was the one time I left a band and they replaced me with a person with little to no talent.  That's depressing, you'd hope the new guy would blow you out of the water.

 

RoadieRon:

If that's the case, just be a solo artist and hire out your band. It's easier that way.

 

Speaking from experience (having done a "full time" band and having done the "part-time fill-ins")...

...I really, really, REALLY wish what you just said was true.

Unfortunately, when you hire out the band, the tendency is to never have the same line-up twice (due to scheduling / other obligations / etc).  On paper, you'd think it'd be different, but it just isn't.  What does this end up as?  Playing essentially the same d*mn set for 3-straight years (adding maybe 3-4 songs along the way).  Seriously, having to re-teach a set to your band for every single show you set up is a more than mind-numbing experience.

To keep things fresh, and to keep new songs funnelling into the rotation, one needs a GROUP working towards a common goal.

G.G.:

Ok, I guess I'm confused.  Rocket, if you're a songwriter (and Octo makes it sound as though people like your stuff), why not start your own band? 

Unfortunately it's not quite that simple.  I wrote 1 song for the Crime Novels, and that's a song that's cycled through three or four bands I've been in since I wrote it in '97 or '98.  With the Crime Novels, this song finally sounded right! 

I tried at more than one point to form my own band, but being the boss is not my forte.  I'm just not a strong enough personality to hold something together.  Which is why hitching myself to Octo has been a great situation for me.  We think alike musically, we're good at adding to each others songs, and he's strong enough to hold something together for a period of time.

Hell, I've been trying to get drummers to come to CrimeNovels rehearsals just to help us out...no commitment, no nothing. Just show up and help us practice. Nobody has the time. I've tried hiring out positions in the band to no avail. My conclusion is that there are just too few drummers and bassists in town, not to mention the three years I looked for a horn section and piano player. The Crime Novels have been my "baby" for many years and I'm torn up about the current state of things. As it stands, the three remaining members are thinking about changing the musical style in order to attract new members as well as ditching the name. There's nothing I'd love more than to pour myself into a new incarnation of the Crime Novels, but the past six months of trying have yielded nothing. NOTHING. So what do you do?

It's disheartening to say the least. I've got the Grande Machine, which is fun, but it's not like the Crime Novels in any way, shape, or form. I've been moonlighting in a techno band as well, but that's going nowhere fast. Anyone need two songwriting guitarists with vocal abilities? Rocket and I are available.

Haha!  Make that 3.  (kidding...)

 

 

 

 

 

(sort of) 

 folkerts, rocket, and octo...hmmmm......it's a shame i quit playing drums ;)

Folkerts:

RoadieRon:

If that's the case, just be a solo artist and hire out your band. It's easier that way.

 

Speaking from experience (having done a "full time" band and having done the "part-time fill-ins")...

...I really, really, REALLY wish what you just said was true.

Unfortunately, when you hire out the band, the tendency is to never have the same line-up twice (due to scheduling / other obligations / etc). On paper, you'd think it'd be different, but it just isn't. What does this end up as?  Playing essentially the same d*mn set for 3-straight years (adding maybe 3-4 songs along the way). Seriously, having to re-teach a set to your band for every single show you set up is a more than mind-numbing experience.

To keep things fresh, and to keep new songs funnelling into the rotation, one needs a GROUP working towards a common goal.

 

Ya know, since I have never done it, I'm not sure of the best way for that to work.

If you are the only one writing, well, then you'd better be one creative mofo that's a prolific writer, arranger, orgranizer, etc.

If not, then you could pay the band members to play what you do write, do some covers, and if they co-write something with you and it somehow hits big, cool for both of you. Work that shit out in the beginning just in case.

I spoke with Kurt Jorgenson about this very subject a few years ago (known him for years and years)...anyway, he stated that it was a lot less bs just hiring the guys out and paying them to play. Of course that leads into some hefty payroll even if you do 1099 everyone + expenses, youd better charge a nice chunk of change for the band. Others I've know have also done this route (hiring people to play), but it's not perfect either. There is a trade off to it.

 i think you kinda hit the nail on the head w/ the amount of money you'd need to charge for your bands performances.  i think it would be easy for Folkerts or myself for example to hire people to play and learn any and all songs required of them if there was going to be a steady paycheck. you know, "hey man, i can guarantee you five hundred dollars for one night of performing."

if that kind of money was at stake more people would be willing to put more time into rehearsing during the week.

if you played once a week and payed each "hired gun" five hundred a week, hell that's almost more than i make having a day job

 the problem becomes what happens when you are trying to do this on a much smaller budget 

ps i'm totally not trying to make this a ten page thread on money vs. art and all that bullshit we've all heard everyone's theories on that before 

1. Join or start a project you truely care about, along with the people involved ( takes some luck, and time)

2. Everyone shows up on times, and learns thier parts

3. Write good songs, work hard on the show, promotion, the music etc

4. Watch groupies and drugs roll in beyond your wildest dreams, then brake up over something stupid at the time

 

or at least thats what ive been told..

George,

I think you kinda hit the nail on the head w/ the amount of money you'd need to charge for your bands performances.

Right. If each guy is getting say $500 a week (regardless of the number of gigs) and you have 4 hired guns, that's 2Gs right there.

I think it would be easy for Folkerts or myself for example to hire people to play and learn any and all songs required of them if there was going to be a steady paycheck. you know, "hey man, i can guarantee you five hundred dollars for one night of performing."

True. Money talks and people listen.

if that kind of money was at stake more people would be willing to put more time into rehearsing during the week.

True, but then you are also talking a different level of musician as well. People getting those kind of gigs play (or played) in bands that warranted it.

if you played once a week and payed each "hired gun" five hundred a week, hell that's almost more than i make having a day job

ehhh kinda. Remember, that's not $500 NET, that's GROSS. As a independant contractor, you pay 15% FICA instead of 7.5%, but you can do some things as write-offs. So whether you make more money doing that then a dayjob all kind of depends.

 the problem becomes what happens when you are trying to do this on a much smaller budget 

True. 

ps i'm totally not trying to make this a ten page thread on money vs. art and all that bullshit we've all heard everyone's theories on that before

 

furious george:

 folkerts, rocket, and octo...hmmmm......it's a shame i quit playing drums ;)

 

 

It's true, Glen has quite the raging hardon for Octo and/or the Crime Novels. Back when we were bandmates, I think I heard him say "octo" and "crime novels" more than "killer riff," "titties" and "madden."

Ok, I was lying on that last one. 

 like that time i said, "dude, octo and the crime novels have this killer riff in one of their songs. it totally makes me want to shake my titties. next time i see octo and the crime novels i'm gonna tell him so. wanna play some madden? i love madden."

Okay, here's my advice. 

1. Save yourself the money of hiring guns, that's ridiculous.Instead get yourself a simple protools rig and learn how to use it.  Get Reason also and use it to add in the other instruments, and then start writing songs. 

2.  Get yourself 3 or 4 solid recordings to start handing out but constantly work on improving them. 

3. Start sharing copies with friends to see what they think but DO NOT start asking people to join this project to replace the Reason engineered parts, at this point you are only looking for direction and opinions.

Eventually people will become interested in your project and will ask you to let them in.  Here you have the opportunity to play hard to get in order to test their dedication to the project.  Eventually you will have your band and it will be with people who are dedicated to the project and not anything else.

What this shows people is your level of dedication.  Every one talks the talk about starting a project but rarely will anyone actually walk the walk.  In most cases people wait for something to fall into their lap and that's not a good thing. 

Your hard work and dedication to the project and pickyness of people you let in will attract the right people.

*****However if you start putting the bait out there and you can't get anyone interested then you better go back to the drawing board or re-evaluate your strengths.  Are you really song writer/frontman material?  or Are you more a George Harrison who could contribute to a stronger songwriter but can't quite stand on his own.

You know how much a Pro Tools and Reason set up is? Hell, I'd rather hire people. They'll at least have a beer with me.

You can get a quick LE and Reason set up for $1000.

I'm NOT talking the big dog here, just something to get by.

Hell, if you have a decent PC you can get a cracked version of Cubase and Reason for free and just add in a midi controller and you're all set.

If you build it, they will come...

Toddah:

or Are you more a George Harrison who could contribute to a stronger songwriter but can't quite stand on his own.

 

WTF are you talking about???

 

Let's be honest, out of the 3 George was 3rd.  Also what the Beatles did togehter by far trumped their solo efforts.

You know what I meant, sure there are better examples where a hit came from someone other than the primary song writers of a group but come on...